Training and Certification of Construction Inspectors for Transportation Infrastructure (2023)

Below is the uncorrected machine-read text of this chapter, intended to provide our own search engines and external engines with highly rich, chapter-representative searchable text of each book. Because it is UNCORRECTED material, please consider the following text as a useful but insufficient proxy for the authoritative book pages.

122 APPENDIX G – SUMMARY OF FOCUS GROUP DISCUSSION In April of 2021, three one-hour focus groups were conducted by the research team. Each focus group followed the focus area-specific protocol that was submitted, revised per panel comments and approved during the fall of 2020 and spring of 2021. The following focus groups were conducted by the research team on the date indicated below: 1) Training and Certifications in Construction Inspection; April 14th, 2021 2) Human Resources in Construction Inspection; April 15th, 2021 3) Consultant firms and Construction Inspection; April 29th, 2021 A summary detailing each focus group is provided below. The purpose of each summary is to document what occurred during each focus group. At this time, the intent is not to provide detailed thematic analysis of participant responses and/or draw conclusions from the collected qualitative data, as these tasks will be completed, provided and vetted in forthcoming project deliverables. In the case of all focus groups, Chris Harper (PI) led the focus group discussions. Additional members of the research team participated by asking follow-up questions, taking notes, and recording the conversations for transcription. The focus group protocol was provided in writing to all participants as an attachment to the meeting request email. Each focus group began with a description of the protocol, a discussion of confidentiality and discussion of ground rules. At the beginning of each focus group the participants introduced themselves and took part in a short icebreaker activity. It should be noted that, since, focus groups use prewritten questions from the protocol (e.g.: Primary Questions, PQ) to stimulate conversation as well as follow-up questions (FQ) which occurred organically. The below summaries paraphrase both PQs and FQs asked during each focus group. Questions were paraphrased to provide clarity in the below summaries. The participant responses are summarized below each PQ and FQ. Participant response were paraphrased for clarity in the summary, however, full focus groups transcripts have been recorded word for word and in their entirety for analysis. In addition to the responses that were provided, numerous documents and CI information links were provided in the chat to illustrate and provide example training programs, resources, etc. Focus Group #1: Training and Certifications in Construction Inspection On April 14, 2021 the research team conducted a one-hour focus group via the Zoom meeting platform with seven individuals representing four STAs and one industry organization that develops training materials that are administered by STAs, consultant inspection firm, etc. The individuals participating in the focus groups are directly involved in the development and/or administration of construction inspector training for their state agency or organization. One confirmed participant from the STA, that was not otherwise represented in the participant group, did not attend. Four members of the research team participated in the focus group. Primary (PQ) and Follow-up Questions (FQ): PQ1- What are the education requirements for construction inspectors? Participant 1 – The requirements are changing because what used to be a construction inspector has turned into being a maintenance operator who [performs] both construction inspection in the summer and maintenance in the winters. Typically high school graduates, rarely would they have a two-year degree. Mostly older gentlemen, however this has turned around recently some younger people getting involved. But the problem we found,

123 originally the inspector was someone that had been trained, worked for several years in a certain part of inspection and that's what they did. And now we've got a whole new class of people coming into the inspection fold that do not have any background in construction inspection and no training is made available to those folks. Participant 3 - Our inspectors are generally what we call ‘engineering tech[nicians]’. They can come in as a Tech I, and as high as a Tech VII. Point being is we've seen them come in with just high school educations or GEDs and we've also hired [individuals at the] Tech IV or V [level], who actually come in with some sort of college degree. So, it depends on the experience when these techs come in and we educate them into while the training that it takes to be an inspector. Participant 6 – [Our] STA has a similar designation of various [CI] levels, that the employees can be hired into. But, the basic requirement is that high school or equivalent education. FQ1 – Is training based on level of education, that is, can a trainee skip some training and jump into more advanced classes? Participant 3 - The [engineering technicians] we hire at the higher levels are able to test out, or if they bring me a transcript, I can't actually waive [the test] for them. So yes, new [engineering technicians] can get advanced placement. Participant 7 - We encourage flexibility as well. So, I echo [Participant 3’s] sentiment that they can test out, if they [demonstrate the knowledge] to test out. But we also have the added factor that that we don't want to make it too restrictive. And also, for populations that speak English as a second language, we want to make sure that we keep our materials at the eighth grade reading level so it's easier to digest for everybody. The [Lower reading level is used] so there's less of a cognitive load, but also for those who speak English as a second language. So, we do keep it lower level. Participant 1 - In [my State], everyone has to go through the materials program. As I said, we don't have a construction certification. We have a material certification, but it would be similar. We have found that in college they are not getting the specifics that go with actual highway inspection. We've had engineers go through our training and fail the test because they would try to take the test without going through the training and they fail. They never had the specifics of working for the STA in construction inspection or in materials inspection whatever the case would be. So whether they had a two-year education or four- year education or come straight out of high school, they were always required to go through the entire training process and pass all the exams which we found was good. And the federal highway supported that too because you don't know exactly what they covered in college and if it dealt exactly with what the STA is going to require. PQ2 [Several related questions to promote discussion] - What are some of the core competencies that you look for inspectors to have? Are you looking for just basic math and reading skills? Is there some [specific] construction knowledge that you're looking for? And is that something that they're going to be able to gain? Does it depend on experience levels? Participant 6 - Here in [my state], we have a construction math class that each technician has to take to gain permanent [employment] status in [my STA]. We've have basic classes like reading of highway plans, they have to do that to do their job proficiently. We have a spec[ification] book course that [engineering technicians] have to take to obtain permanent

124 [employment] status in [my STA]. But like you said, it's a progression the higher up you get, the more training you get. And [training] is a little bit more specialized training here in [my state]. Participant 7 - We have found that one of the basic classes that every inspector needs, whether they've got their degree or not, is math. Of course, math is the basis, but so much of it then [applies specifically] to grade Inspector, PCC Inspector, Structures Inspector, HMA Inspector. And, those all are entirely different qualifications and certifications. You can't put all [math] for construction inspection in one big ball. It's got to be broken down. But math, plan reading, and like [Participant 1] promoted their [training program] has math courses focused on doing inspection on a grading job or whatever the case may be. And they also have plan reading and this type of thing that, those are the types of courses they have to have the basics and they have to be separated out into certain areas of inspection. FQ2a - Can I ask you to expand a little bit on that one? As far as the path to get to the different topical areas [described by a respondent]? Is it based on what jobs are coming up for your STA? How do people move through the [career] path to inspect different systems; how do they get through that door to those different sectors? Participant 1 - In the good old days you would have the inspector go out there and train the next inspector and they would have six months on a project on one type of area. Well that doesn't happen anymore. They just are thrown to the wolves. I wouldn't say, unfortunately, in today's world you may be on a grade inspection job today for two months, and then you might go straight to a paving job. So, I don't think there's a progression, as much as just an overview of everything before they get sent out there. Now, it would be great to have a review of a certain job area before they go on that job, if time permits they could take classes and so forth for that area. But most of your inspectors, unless we're just a whole strange state here cover a lot of different used to be if you were a paving inspector, that's all you did. And now as I said, you might come in from maintenance and work on the inspection, or you might just come straight from one type of job into the other. FQ2b – We’ve heard that we don't have time to send you off the training. What's the quality of these inspections? Are [construction inspectors] missing things because they're not versed in it and don't have the experience? Participant 1 - We started a training academy and it sounds a lot like what [specific STA] is working on. That was great because you had six weeks and you could cover a week of grade inspection, a week of paving inspection, and they got a lot of the basic information, not detailed but basic in that timeframe where you cover math. But [my STA] didn't stick with it. It was expensive. It took time [and] they needed the employees [working on projects]. So [a training academy] would be a good route to go if the states would take time to do that. FQ2c – The discussion has been very STA specific, but I’m curious where [industry organizations] fit with some of these education things. Could you speak a little bit about how you develop some of the training material and how this fits with your [industry organization]? Participant 5 – One of the challenges is that [an inspector’s] training and education is going to be so specific related to what is that person actually responsible for. If they're a laboratory kind of inspector where they're looking at QC, they don't have to understand the

125 entirety of the process. They only have to understand how does that test work, how does that lab work. Where[as], if you're a paving inspector, the challenge is you have to understand how a mixed design was done, how it goes through an asphalt plant and how it is constructed because you might see a deficiency and you have to be able to try to pinpoint where in this whole process did it go wrong? So, the depth of knowledge to get to one of those points has to be a lot more exhaustive. We've actually seen a couple of these programs developed in the past year where the Department of Defense (DOD) is now requiring, they're to be certified laboratory technicians, certified quality control managers and paving instructors on all DOD Jobs. I put links to the website [in the chat] that outlines the program so you've got access to that but you'll even be able to see the different level of detail and skill that is [required] for QC versus the full paving inspector program. It's hard to educate people who are out there inspecting an asphalt plant and what goes down, or how to evaluate an asphalt plant in production, if they have no clue how an asphalt plant even works. And, I think that that's the challenge that we've seen on an industry, like [other participants were saying] the Department of Transportation, their employees are having to be spread so thin that they really can't have the expertise that they need to fully understand what's going on, the different mechanisms of every [aspects of the process]. FQ1d – I see [Participant 6] added a link to [STA training materials] in the chat, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Participant 6 - We're experiencing the same thing. We have the [training manual provided in the link]. We also have a two weeklong boot camp that we provide to construction [inspector] employees. But again, that's the high level that they're just getting an overview of the requirements and then what information they're needing to include, the forms that they may need to use. But until they're actually out there in the field, they are not getting to have those experiences and to see that actual production and stuff. We do have a team of members, of inspectors that act as mentors that our boot camp participants are able then to follow-up with. So that when they are out there in the field, they're able to call and ask those questions specific to what's going on within their job and we found that's been very beneficial. Participant 4 - We are telling our inspectors they have to have six months of experience. But [regarding] that six months of experience, we don't know exactly what they're getting while they're getting that experience. So we're actually trying to streamline it a little bit. Maybe cutting it down to maybe a month to three months depending upon what type of certification that person is getting right now. For example, PCC structure will take at least six months just to get the piles in the ground. So that's all [the inspector] will see for six months, I mean that's all they see. So, we're not really getting a great certified inspector there. We actually want to come up with a program where [construction inspectors] actually see a point A to point Z for the whole process. So [for example the program would cover] not only just for one type of bridge, but for several different types of bridges. Participant 3 - We're putting together something that's not been done before here in core competencies. When it comes to what we expect from that field experience, even though we train them, we give them training, whether it's in class or whether it's web-based or whether it's self-study manuals. We give them the training, but then we have to put them in the field and we've been doing this six months program for years and years. And of course it crosses my desk and do I really know if they have the competency? It's until we

126 get them out there and they do a field evaluation, for our district trainers, then we know for sure, but we've decided that is going to be in everyone's best interest if we get them out there for these core competencies and they see something for eight hours a day. We're going to take them out of their office and put them down there for eight hours. Even if it's a month with 20 working days, but to get you out of your office for an entire day, watch them drive piles...now I know that doesn't give them all the ins and outs. It's like we were talking to our administrator today about there are so many things that could go wrong with, say, an asphalt paver, and there are little things that they can encounter, but having watched it for so long, they can see this. And that's darn near having a mentor leaning over the shoulder, which I'm a true advocate of mentors, but I don't think that will happen here. But we can't let them out in the field until they know everything, literally everything. We always say they have to do the performance eval[uation] right, at least once do the job right. Once they’re in the field, they're expected to do QA for us. PQ3 – What training is provided and how is it delivered/what trainings are required? What trainings do they need to get proper certifications, some of the processes that they have to go through to obtain proper training? You can talk about things that are working, other things you have mentions like the traing academy, as well as obstacle or challenges to training. Participant 1 - As far as the training, I mean the courses, you can require [construction inspectors] to take and I know [STA] for instance had a course on PCC paving and one on HMA paving and so forth. The [inspectors that] needed to take them. Then, when you get into the point of certification, you're talking a whole different ballgame, because the question when I fought for certification for years of our construction inspectors, I was always asked the same question, what are you going to do when they fail the test? Because we don't have people just sitting around, what are we going to do with these people if they can't do inspection? Where are we going to put them? How are we going to use them? And I had no answer. I would hope to think if they weren't, couldn't pass the test that they weren't qualified and they wouldn't have them out there. But, they always argued that they may be good at the job, but they just can't pass [the test] anyhow. That's a problem we ran into. Participant 3 - I'm going to piggyback on what [participant 1] said, I totally understand [the challenges around] testing. I've been teaching 33 years now and I've seen every student, doesn't matter what age group they are in, and there's always those that can't test well. And it used to be that if you were a teacher, if someone failed your test, well, there's only a couple of things [to consider]. Did I teach you right? Did the material get across to them? So those are the things that run in [that were considered] the back of our mind. We don't help our students through that. However, we see to it that after each time they do take a test, whether it's a progression all the way up to their specialty area exam, we see to it that we review things with them. Because, specialty area exam [questions] come from the test that they've taken from [elementary classes]. If they do an asphalt paving [specialty exam], that there's some elementary classes that go first. So, we see that they don't know this kind of stuff. And, you're absolutely right. We're now doing testing with computers, and that scares the fire out of some people. Those of you that said, you knew something about [state] and there are people all over the state that still struggle with reading and writing. I gave a math test to a welder and he turned to me and he said, how do you convert a fraction to a decimal? We think we know that so, but as soon as I wrote one over two and ask him what it was, well then, he knew what was happening. So, it was a basic thing.

127 So, we've got to teach the way they learned. We have to teach what they do on the job. We tried really hard to gear our training programs toward the specific job that they're supposed to do. If I'm going to teach you math about the embankment, you're going to have to do a little estimating and it's going to come from station to station and cross section. Test them from what they know. By the way, testing doesn't always have to be written. I can ask you a dozen questions and I can find out a lot about you or you can answer my questions. Participant 1 – Yeah, I see where you're coming from there [participant 3]. But I see we have a lot of southern states on here and when you come up north these guys are snowplow operators. They're not just an inspector. They maybe just having a GED, maybe some of them don't even have that much. So, it's not that they don't test well its, they don't know what you're talking about and so they're starting from scratch. And, you need to start at the very basics to get them caught up. You guys have certification programs in construction, correct? But see a lot of states don't, and there's different reasons but as I said this all boils back to when they wrote the CFR 23, they put in there all about materials and they did not include construction. So no state is required to have a construction inspection program and if a state isn't required to do something, they're going to tell you that they need that money to build roads and it's not meant for training. So, there's problems in different parts of the country and with different states trying to enforce a lot of them. And I'm not promoting [training program], but a lot of the courses that we have put out or what different states are now including in their construction inspection programs because it's something they can take and they don't have to go to a classroom. It's not costing the state anything. But as far as getting to the certification point, I don't see that happening in some states because the federal highway [administration] is not enforcing [certifications]. They're promoting [certifications] but not enforcing it. Participant 5 - It's fascinating for me to see the highway perspective versus what we've seen going on in the airfields side of things, where it's coming down from the Department of Defense that we are going to require paving inspectors on every single job that have gone through this certification. So, [research team], I can give you a contact from DOD and you could have a conversation about, if they're struggling so bad to do this on the highway side, what was the impetus for DOD to basically say we’re putting our foot down and you're having to do this? Facilitator – Like [Participant 1] was mentioning, maybe FHWA and U.S. DOT just needs to enforce this more, and make sure it happens. Participant 1 - We did fight that for some time with the federal highway [administration] and we were told that they were not going to rewrite CFR 23. And so, we got the door slammed on us many times over. We could try again, but that's where it stood. FQ3 - [paraphrased] How did you come to provide construction inspector training via the CI Boot camp/CI training academy? Were there deficiencies that were noted that led your STA to start a CI Academy program? Participant 7 - Yeah, I'm going to jump in really quick. I'm going to let [participant 6] explain the genesis of our boot camp and where we're at. But I do want to highlight that we do joke around about snow and, having people from corpus Texas train on snowplows. We still prepare for that because we're all one big STA and we all share resources, so we do use snowplow simulators and we send those all over the state prior to snow and ice season. So, I think there are some opportunities for us to leverage new technologies when we're

128 talking about construction inspectors and how they get a virtual asphalt plant tour even when the local asphalt plant is closed down for the season. I think there are some really cool things out there that we could bring into this and up level what we're doing for construction inspectors. Participant 6 - So, based upon the quality of inspection that was going on in the field, it was determined that we needed to provide some training for our inspectors. It is up to their immediate supervisor to determine what training's need to be taken based upon the specific contract requirements that they have. However, for someone to get that initial introduction to everything as we've been seeing and what the need, we’ve understood that we’ve lost that transfer of knowledge from those existing inspectors to the new ones that are coming in at this point. So, we created a two weeklong construction inspector boot camp. The boot camp has the various modules related to the [Training manual], and then also goes through the field experiences, field trips that are correlated to the modules that have been reviewed. So, they're placed throughout those two weeks to allow them to see some of those items within the field that have been going on within the discussion. We don't pair them with a specific mentor but we have our team of inspectors that are available that they can reach out to at any point in time after they leave the class so that they know that they're not just out there without anybody else. We created a web page that lists additional resources that they can access it any time. And, then we also have a one day course based upon the specific districts needs or once where they may be noting some discrepancies that we come in and we can share additional information within specific topics such as traffic control, paving and the basic information that we want them to make sure that they are aware of. And it also includes the ground information that we're currently working on making into a computer-based training or spec book, plan reading and that basic contract information that they're need to be aware of and that would benefit everyone. But currently it is still up to the individual supervisor or the employee making that request to have their participation within it. Participant 1 – [To Participant 7]: Do you have a certification then when they get done with this, are they certified? Participant 7 - We do provide them with a certificate, but it's for their participation in the class. Their training summary will show that they attended the class and the course. Participant 1 – [To Participant 7]: But you don't actually have a construction inspection certification? Participant 7 - No, it's not an official certification. FC4 – Some of the folks we've talked to and some of the stuff we've gotten back in our survey talks about how people see construction inspector as a job and maybe a point to start something, but not something that's going to turn into a career or a long-term position. [With that in mind,] do you have any things you do to entice individuals to pursue construction inspection as a career? Participant 4 - So, we have an educational training called the Structured Training Program. For some inspectors that are just green as everything, they'll come as an engineering tech I and they can make it all the way up to engineering tech V. And each one of those progression steps is like a 10.5% increase in pay. That’s probably what a lot of states do, and that's what we do here in [My State] Participant 7 - Traditionally we see that are successful folks who are new employees that matriculate on through maintenance contract inspection and then they kind of graduate to

129 construction inspections. So, there's kind of a natural career progression there that comes internally and that's been there for a while. One of the things I would like to note is since we're also talking about the education side, I'm noticing more in Texas and in the southern states where there's more pressure to make professional engineers, we're seeing more and more professional engineering boards allow construction managers and those with construction management degrees to sit for the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and even get PE licenses. So, I think you're seeing an added pressure that takes away talent from a construction inspection and construction management pool and puts them into pure engineering jobs. So, I think you're going to have more pressure. They're kind of the same way that surveyors got kind of pulled into the, “Hey, do you want to make more money? You better be an engineer” field. Facilitator - Yeah, that's a great point. I've heard from several folks with AASHTO Committee on Construction that in the field they'd much rather have construction management students. But because they have to be engineers and have to have had the FE and can get to the PE, they have to hire civil engineers. FC5 – Are there any final closing thoughts that we should take away from this discussion? Participant 5 - We did some market research on this very issue in 2019. This report [linked in the chat] shows the results. We focused on the general population and educators. But what we found was people wanted to be able to understand career pathways. “if I start off here, am I going to be doing this, like stuck in this kind of position my whole life?” And so, we're actually looking at the road construction industry and developing those career pathways and how long does it take to show people that there are options and there are ways to move through this [career]? So that's not just I'm stuck here at this job, you've got a career [path]. Focus Group #2 - Human Resources in Construction Inspection On April 15th, 2021 the research team conducted a one-hour focus group via the Zoom meeting platform with nine individuals representing eight STAs. The individuals participating in the focus groups are directly involved in the recruiting, hiring, directing and/or management of tasks within the Human Resources Department of their respective STA. Four members of the research team participated in the focus group. In addition to the responses that were provided information links were provided in the chat to illustrate and provide example apprenticeship programs, HR resources, etc. Primary (PQ) and Follow-up Questions (FQ): PQ1 - What significant challenges do you experience in recruiting construction inspectors? Participant 2 – At the Department of Transportation in [may state] were governed by civil service. And so, for us, it is strictly a matter of eligibility and pay scale. I am happy to announce that in the last month we have come to an agreement with civil service to issue an apprenticeship title, which was not available. So we're hoping to put in place, and it changed. this problem that we've been having, but I would say at least for my six years that transportation people can't meet our eligibility requirements and they're not functioning that way once they're hired. So, it's kind of like a catch 22. You want them to have more experience coming in the door, but they're not even going to be using some of that experience on the front end. And then we train [construction inspectors] so I can't train someone that's not here. So that's pretty much our struggle, the pay scale. We can kind of

130 wiggle around just because we are state government, we do issue a nice benefits package. So, I don't think people are deterred as much by the pay scale as they are about the community eligibility. Participant 9 - Our challenges that we get a fair number of applicants, both male and female. And when they get their notice of the interview, I follow-up with telephone calls, they don't show up for interviews. And that happens [with] probably at least 50% of our total applicants. So, it's a real challenge to try to fill our jobs. Participant 1 - We don't have as much challenge as I thought we did once, I look at the data, I mean we're running about 80% of our traditional authorizations were, in our field construction units. But under our secretary’s new organization, we're about 90% of those slots [filled]. And we lose very few [but that's going into retention] and we have pretty robust internal [hires], we have a fair number, most of our construction inspectors, that come across from maintenance actually. And so obviously, we do have some issues everybody has with civil service pay. As I said, I don't think benefits are as big a sell. It's certainly not to people under probably about 30 [as it is] to people 40 and over. But right now, we're actually [in a] pretty good place in construction inspection. And we, additionally contract at a lot of it. So, I'm happy to participate but it's not a problem that's troubling us right this minute. Participant 6 - I think we're facing the same recruitment challenges across the board as almost every business out there. But one of the things we are able to do, especially for anybody who's got a civil background as opposed to just tech. where they only need the two-year [degree], is we can do some hiring at a higher pace scale or a higher range. So, they don't start at the base level on their [pay] scale that they would come in. so we do a different grade plus the different steps over time and most people start at a step one. Usually our techs and civil engineers come in automatically at a higher level and then we do some additional higher enter ranges. They've got even more experience. We do the same as [Participant 1]. We also have outsourcing and have consultants do some of that. And this past here we use some of our maintenance folks. I'm not 100% sure how long they've been doing that, but I'm hearing more and more of that when they come off snow season in Vermont we get plenty of that and then in the summer they're not maybe quite as busy, they kind of transition. And when we talk about retention, we've got a couple of good retention strategies that are helping us keep in some cases, I mean it's like everything, there's some turnover, but I think we are doing okay in that respect. Participant 8 - As far as recruiting, we're kind of going through a different transition. We did try to increase how much we're paying to bring people in, but we're also competing against the counties and the cities who have like increased and bumped [pay] up a lot. And so budget wise, we are competing against them. And then, initially we thought we had about 68 openings and there's like 308, they need to be filled by June. So yeah, so that's a little bit of a challenge. And then retention has been, once again, we're losing them to the counties and cities. So, and they're taking our qualified talent with experience. And so, now we're just really trying to rebuild basically here in [my STA] Participant 5 - A lot of the challenges that have been mentioned are things that we face here at [my STA]. One thing as well is we have maintenance and construction, crews in every county throughout the state. So, we struggle with recruiting in those rural or distressed county locations for a number of reasons; interest and [finding] those wanting to do that kind of work, drug testing. And, the online application process is something we've

131 struggled with as well. We've had the [online application system] for years, but getting to those areas where they might not be as technically savvy and able to fill out online applications. So, [online application] something that we've struggled with as far as recruiting. Participant 8 – Agreed via chat regard challenges; ‘Agreed, rural and application process.’ FQ1a - How do you get people that, live in [a city] to move to a rural area? Participant 4 - Very similarly our recruitment challenges very different in rural versus urban areas. One is just finding enough people, the other is in the more urban areas, is competing on pay primarily with cities, counties, and especially with consultant forces that we have, so at [my STA], especially in fuel construction, we have sort of made a decision that we will have a baseline of in-house staff that we kind of try to retain here and then we do a lot of supplemental forces with our CEI contracts. Those [CEIs] are a lot of former [STA] employees. A lot of the people from those areas who have retired, who go back to sort of manage those consultant programs. We use this quite a lot in much like [participant 6] we sort of have two tracks, We have a track for those who come in kind of entry-level, work their way up through experience based, and then we have those who come in with a degree who come in at a higher level, which in and of itself creates its own sort of issues for those who felt like, they kind of worked their way up and then a new graduate comes in several steps above them, on day one with minimal experience. I think one of the other recruitment challenges is just having schools and different industries really marketing construction as a career path, in STAs and, not in vertical construction but roadway construction. We lost a lot of those programs and some of our technical schools over the years. They kind of went more engineering side. And we're really part of what I'll share later. Some strategies were really trying to work back with our technical school system to get some of those programs back on their agendas because they were they were awesome pipelines for us but they're not quite as robust as they used to be in years past. PQ3 - [paraphrased] What strategies are you implementing to overcome the challenges you’ve mention with regard to recruitment and retention? Participant 6 - [My state] is very seasonally driven, the construction season is a shorter period and it tends to fall within that range of when college students are off. This is multipronged. So, in the summer months we're really looking for people who are in a technical kind of degree, maybe following an engineering path, environmental path. We hire them in as temps, but we call them interns, so they're getting paid, you're getting a chance to work in the field, they're getting to know our agency, we're getting to know them, we start encouraging that as early as their sophomore year, but we've taken younger. They'll come and work a couple of seasons with us. And then that just gets them acclimatize to us and creates a sense of almost loyalty, both directions. And so when they do graduate, they often see us as an employer they want to go to and they see the range of opportunities within our technical positions. That’s a kind of investment and it works, plus we need that seasonal physical labor and help. So that is one way, then we also have what we call an engineering rotation program. It's small, a dedicated couple positions, and we've got a couple engineers who rotate around the agency typically right after a college degree, their four-year program, and that creates a ton of energy and a ton of knowledge [within] our agency base. We work really closely with our local universities and higher education. So,

132 it's kind of getting them in at the ground level and then growing them. And then, as many other people said, we grow them and then they go to a contractor or consultant. And as far as the recruiting for women and minorities, I think we've been lucky in [my state], at least for the last 10 plus years for our civil engineering. We have a great representation of women, [but my state] is probably the whitest state or second whitest state in the US. At least with respect to women, we do relatively okay. We have something called a hiring justification that it basically looks at all recruitment processes. We look at the candidate pool, first anybody needs to be qualified. They must be qualified to meet the minimum quality first. We review [minimum qualifications] and send the hiring manager a list of what we call mandatory interviews. From that, they interview the candidate pool that they want to see, including those mandatories, and then if they hire somebody who's not a mandatory [interviewee] they must justify it. And so, by justification, it's taking some of those biases out that are unconscious. We don't have any [targets or] goals. But I think when you make a hiring manager stand by their decision, their decision is based on truly the best candidate, not because of who they are, what their name sounds like, how they look, or things like that, because they're held to a sort of higher scrutiny, and that's not actually reviewed by our civil rights section. Hiring [justifications are] reviewed by our directors. They give the final thumbs up thumbs down or they just ask a question like why did this person do better on the interview? But you hired this person? Is there a reason? And they must justify it, As soon as you make them accountable, they start thinking about it more. And it has paid dividends. We started off with just our maintenance because that was where we had the hardest time. The leadership liked it so much, they done it really across the board and it's helped just change the mindset so that people get to the table, they weren't getting to the table. So, we were having a hard time even hiring. They just weren't getting to the table. Yeah, it helped. It's been [implemented] for several years now. FQ3a - [paraphrased] I see [Participant 5] mentioned rapid hiring events and career fairs in the chat, can you please expand on that topic with regard to successful recruiting. Participant 5 - Yes, absolutely. As I mentioned with the first question, we struggle with the initial interest with applicants, maybe not understanding my STA; who we are, what we do, the impact that we make, and then also that application process just really seems to set us back. So having these rapid, higher events where we host them in different locations across the state where candidates can come in, we have an information session, we have applications on site and then do the interview right then and there and we can hire them on the spot. So that has really helped us significantly. And then the career fairs really just doing more branding and outreach and just gaining interest from the public has helped us tremendously because again it's really strong streams from that initial understanding of the work and the benefits and things that really could make an impact for our communities and that's what we really try to drive from with those events, but that's just one of the strategies that we've found that have really worked for us. FC3b – [Participant 4] you mentioned stuff about some internships if you want to little bit about that. Participant 4 - Every summer, we try to have year round interns when possible, but we focus heavily in the summer. Last summer was the only [internship] we were actually able to do were in field construction. That was the only area where we could actually do some

133 level of social distancing, that we felt comfortable with having students come in, but Internships are a great way. Again, I think a lot of this is just getting that messaging out that [construction] is a very viable career field for people and getting them in the door and experiencing that is a great way [that leads to] word of mouth promotion. They take that back to their school, into their communities and that helps. But then from the non-degree side, it's kind of back to basics, so much had moved toward everything, being online, everything being automated from an application process. And for a lot of our construction and maintenance positions, especially in rural areas, we were finding that just was not a great driver of applicants. So really trying to have put more of that responsibility on the local area offices to kind of get out within the community and market what they do has been much more helpful than just posting our jobs on an internal website and praying that somebody somehow finds that job ads somewhere. But really that community-based marketing has gone a long way, especially in our field construction and maintenance areas. Participant 8 – [via chat] We are doing internships [with] College and high school in construction Participant 6 – [via chat] We take our maintenance/construction staff with us to career fairs, in person and [now] virtual career fairs. FQ3c – [Participant 8] mentioned a need to hire 300 individuals, what are some of the strategies that you're trying to use right now to try and fill these positions? Participant 8 - Yesterday I met with like the JAG [Jobs for American Graduates] programs for the high schools, which is a job readiness program that they have. They have some seniors that are graduating. So, we were like, hey would they be interested in becoming an equipment operator? And the [high school] said they would like to have us come to the school and talk to them. They have about, I think he said there's 20 left, that don't have jobs yet. So I'm not expecting to get all 20, but if I can get a few interested. That's just in one area, because the whole program is statewide, then I will expand to go into some of the other regions as well. So that's kind of how we've been looking at it. They have another program that is online that they used [called] ‘huddle.’ The students do assessment tests and they get matched to a particular company. And so initially, they were just kind of looking at us as transportation only. So, we were like, hey, there's other positions, if [students] want to be in the field of engineering. Don't look at just ‘transportation’ as the only ‘look up’ for us. So, we've expanded that this week, I've also been going to different veteran community fairs, just reaching out wherever I can, wherever the people are going to be. That's where [my STA] is at right now because I feel like at this point, we must get out there Because initially we just had 68 and found out it is 308 and the secretary is not happy. I've only been in this position now for 2.5 months, so I was not aware it was that dire. So, we're just going out there and starting any type of program that we can get in where the people are. Participant 3 - I was going to respond to the first question, but just like everyone else has been an issue, especially when we're competing against cities, counties, and consultants to be honest with you being the STA. But we have developed some progression opportunities for career advancement opportunities which have gone over well. As well as we have a graduate engineering development program which is a rotation program for engineers. We have a scholarship program for engineers and we also participate in co-op. We do have internships as well. We also have tuition reimbursement opportunities and we do encourage

134 our people to advance for those that choose to do so. We do also we also have a workforce development director who also looks a different program for us including recruiting events and second chance as well, so opportunities there. So, we're looking at all kinds of ways to try and, not only get qualified/recruit qualified applicants, but then also retain them. You don't want to train someone up for someone else. Participant 9 - For [my state] we are very similar to what [Participant 6] and [Participant 4] do, we have those same programs. We've also done the high school career fairs. Because we're very small population state, when we have career fairs for our students, they'll bring in 50 different schools from all over the region. They'll be up to 9th grade for that career fair. And even though it seems like they're very young, a lot of them are very focused where they do already know that they want to be a snowplow driver. And those [kids] are always kind of fun to talk to the enthusiasm [can be high]. And, some of them are very focused that they want to be an engineer or they want to go after civil engineer degrees, or they want to drive a snowplow like their dad does and we really embrace that as well. Participant 1 - We're doing a lot of the same things. I look at this list of stuff, and the playbook seems to be common, from state to state really. Participant 2 - I share the same sentiments. We've been doing everything that everyone else has indicated. Although, I would point out that you guys mentioned a lot of maintenance people moving over to construction. The way that our department is broken [apart], we don't have that movement. You're either are in maintenance, or you come in with engineering experience and can go into the construction field. So, although I would love to participate more in the programs that they listed, we don't have that ability right now, at least not the way that we have our department constructed. And, for [my state], I love that idea about the summer employment. We have a summer employment program but we've never even offered it to our construction personnel because they have to come in with experience. So, the college juniors that we have are only able to work in engineering functions office. So, I would love to deep into that a little bit more. Participant 6 - One thing I'm thinking as the discussion is going on, since people have small offices and things like that. When we go to career fairs, we bring a subject matter expert. If it's engineering, we bring an engineer. If its maintenance, we bring [someone in maintenance] because they generate the excitement about the job, they know the jobs, right? And then even in our rural places, we will have people [struggle with the] application process. I don't think it's as bad now as it had been, but people just could not do the online [application]. So they would go to a district office and they'd work in the district office with somebody who would help them fill out the application, right? So, I guess what I'm trying to say is we've really, in [my State], seen this as this is everybody's issue, not just the HR or the trainer. Whoever it is, you need to be actively involved in your recruitment…and that's been great. And, I'll tell you the benefit is when we bring people to our career fairs, they get excited about their job. Talking to somebody who really likes what they are doing, has shared their path, has shared some excitement about the organization they work for speaks volumes. And sometimes that's enough to make somebody decide one way or the other. It doesn't replace the money [e.g., salaries], but it helps. Facilitator - We have semester career fairs here, and the companies that come, bring back alumni. They bring the students that went through our program back. And talk to the [current] students in the program. And, it gets them all jazzed up. It works well.

135 Participant 6 - They talk about their professors, “you’re taking that class, so you want to do this, you want to do that.” That's how we got two of our rotational engineers, based on the person we brought with us [to the career fair]. Participant 3 - What [participant 6] said is so true. We've experienced that, then we take subject matter experts or people that in that field, the passion that they exhibit really is a great draw for us to be able to recruit. We also do virtual career fairs where we do open interviews. We found that open interviews have become very successful for us. So, we have done that. The other thing is, and I'm not sure what the others on the call do or not, but our inspectors and construction [employees] are required to also participate in snow plow operations during the winter season. So maybe, some others may have the same thing going on. I'm not sure. And then we also have a shared workforce program where people get to move around between maintenance, construction, testing and traffic because some people like diversity as well as far as what they do. So, we're trying to be as creative as possible longer. PQ4 – We’ve discussed recruitment, what challenges do you have with retention? [Paraphrased] I want to get to our other component here on retention. In terms of recruitment are you doing any kind of programs to attract women to construction inspection? What are some of the other challenges with inspectors and what are the strategies you're trying to do to keep them there? Are you building career paths around these things? I've heard that sometimes, especially the inspectors, view it as just a job, it's not a career. I'm happy to get [a job] and it's going to pay me, and I like working outdoors, but five years, ten years, from now, this is not where my career is going to be. Please speak a little bit about that if you can. Participant 3 - With our entry-level, we have implemented, I believe three years ago, that we will automatically promote you once you served two years. Because of, I'm going to call it a ‘brain drain,’ we have a lot of people retiring and [have been in a] hiring freeze for quite some time. So automatically, everyone does have that anticipation of, okay, after I hit my two-year mark [they] are going to be promoted [and] have something to look forward to. We are only currently doing that with the first level employees], but our plan is to also implement it with the second level. We just need managerial approval on that, so they can pick and choose [who gets promoted]. Whereas with the first group, it is automatic. They've worked so, unless they've been disciplined, they will be promoted. So that's what we try to do, which has helped. Participant 3 - Yes, as [participant 3] was stating, we are working through promotion as well and building a career path. But, we do ‘under fill’ [positions]. We may hire somebody in as a highway technician one position, but under fill them as a ‘two’ until they acquire the necessary education or internal testing. Until they complete on the [job] training and testing, and have the number of years of experience, and then they promote they to highway technician one. We also do that with our engineers as well, we hire right out of college, and help them to work toward getting their EIT and also their PE. Participant 5 - With our engineers, I think our retention overall is pretty good, but we do struggle with that, at the skilled labor technician level the most. And that's due to a lot of the different factors that have been mentioned, [such as] pay and career advancement. We also do random drug testing, and a CDL requirement, as well within their first 11 months. And that's been a challenge for us to retain individuals that must meet those qualifications. We're looking into other strategies. I've heard a lot about apprenticeship programs and that's

136 something that we are working toward, as well as, education advancement opportunities. The pay is something that, I'm not sure how other docs are structured, but we are under the guidance of a department of Han Resources and sometimes it's hard to get past that pay level. Even though we love to see it increase, that’s something that we struggle with and it affects our retention. Participant 8 [via the chat] – Apprenticeships, it's not automatic but they will get promoted, we are doing realignment to add pay increases as well. Participant 6 - Although I'm really interested in immediate [promotions] after two years that are automatic unless they've been disciplined, I wish we could do that on some of ours. We are unionized and with our department human resources, it goes across all state government. So [there are] certain things you can and can't do, we do have those series [of levels] for both our technicians, our civil engineers and even for our maintenance crews. And so, they can move up through that. Like if you come straight out of school, you're at a level 1 and then as you get ‘x’ number of years of experience you get level 2. Then as you get more and more experience and qualifications you can go up. And that helps. The downside is it's not consistently applied across groups, so some groups, depending on which group you get hired into, their supervisor may be more proactive and moving them up and we lose people that way sometimes because of the lack of pro activity of some supervisors as well. So, trying to keep that in balance too….And we are small, our agency is like 1200 people, that's [the] entire state. Participant 4 - Much like [Participant 6], we have a dual track, the technical side as well as the engineering side that have career ladders in each. Unfortunately, over the years we've lost that ability to automatically promote people through those. We used to have it set up as automatic promotions and then, just due to budget constraints over the years, we still have those levels, but they compete for the same funds that every other position within their program competes for. So, it's always a balance of bringing in new people or promoting those that are currently there. So that's always a struggle. But, we do have those career series built in, I'll kind of jump to career development because we use training and development as a huge pull to keep them there. And, we know it goes both ways. We know we're going to lose a lot of our people to the consultant or cities and counties. We try to take the big picture look and say hey if they're well trained and they're working for a consultant, and we're using that consultant that just means we have a better product that we're getting from them. But part of our CEI Contract does require our consultants to provide training to our staff. So, it kind of cuts a little bit both ways there where, we lose some of our better people there. But we also are expecting them to come back and continue to train and develop our current resources. So, we have a robust training and development program there. We would love to be able to get back to the automatic salary increases. But unfortunately, I don't see that coming back any time but it’s kind of is what it is there. Participant 7 - From the training side within HR, really from the divisions, we have a big training budget for the whole department that is split up between training and career development. So, we have a bunch of different divisions here, so you're hired not only to for where you're hired for, a lot of divisions reach out to us for needed trainings. So, it could be projects, inspections, concrete. We are always plugging into what [training] is needed for their areas. So, from the divisions, we get a lot of the information about ‘what you do need for your areas.’ So, we do give, constantly, refresher trainings. Whether it be yearly trainings, or they come to us for any new developments on any training needed for

137 their areas and career advancement as well. So not only are you hired for what you're currently doing, but within the department as a whole, you do have a whole slew of other areas, as long as it makes sense to the transportation [division]. Also, we do pay for the FE. So, it's a whole host of training. We do a lot of in-house [training]. We also receive federal funds to continue to pour into our employees. We are very heavy into training here at in [my state] and our department. So, it’s more on the division side letting us know what is needed and we will financially negate that for them. So sometimes we'll have, pre-COVID, sometimes we'll have someone come in or we'll send them out. A lot of things now are virtual. So, we definitely are very supportive of pouring into our employees when it comes to training on so many levels. Participant 6 - I heard ‘federal funding’ for training your employees. Is that the kind of pot of money where you apply the HWA Funds, or something different? Participant 7 – Yes. Yes, we are. We have a big pot we receive every two years, but we must justify ‘what is this money going toward?’ So, we do get reimbursed back. But yes, we have a whole school of training funds to pour into our staff, but yes, it is federally funded. Participant 6 – Awesome, okay. We use some of that. I just wanted to make sure, in case I was missing a pot [of funding] out there. PQ5 - Can each of you give us your final thoughts on recruitment, retention and career development for construction inspectors? Or perhaps provide a lesson learned from your STA to take into the future? What are some current ways that we can improve the retention and recruitment of construction inspectors? Participant 6 - I think some of it is [continuing] doing what we're doing. This activity has been helpful for me to get an idea of what other [states] are doing. I think going back to our [leadership], getting the buy in from our leadership, as I will say a little healthy competition works. So, bringing that back to your leadership to say this is what they're doing in other states does sometimes help. I think it's doing more of [what we are doing] and then really utilizing the resources that we already have in-house to help us sell our positions. And, remind [our employees] they are our ambassadors, they're embedded in their own communities. There are ways they can help us advertise, reach out, and refer people, things like that. It's just building a community. Participant 9 - We do so many [of the] things that all of you have mentioned. It's very similar in a lot of ways with the pay scales, the pay is always an issue. It always comes down to the money. As far as programs, internally we also have some programs where we help our newest hires, or even more seasoned [employees] that don't have their PE [license]. We have a PE review process and that connects up and they do a PE review for like, I'll just say like a month, I don't know how often they were meeting and then the individuals took their PE [exam] and it really worked. It was very, very helpful and so, we're willing to try everything that we can too to keep those as well. Participant 3 - This has been informative for me as well. For final thoughts, I really think that training and development is very important. I found that our people, through our surveys and actually employee engagement, have found [training and development to] be a great benefit. A lot of them are greatly interested in [training and development] as well as in career progression. We focus here to offer all kinds of opportunities, we pay for training, pay for licensing, we try and encourage our people to excel. And yes, pay is an issue sometimes as we try to compete, especially when we compete with consultants and

138 contractors being a state employer. We have found other ways to be creative in recruiting and retaining employees. Participant 3 – [via groups chat] We also train in-house. We have a robust training program for our Construction Project Inspectors and offer salary adjustments for them completing the training and our hiring managers are actively involved in the recruiting and engagement, which has yielded great benefits. Participant 4 - I think it's important just to be open minded, and it's not going to be a one size fits all approach. Like I said, we try to make room for technicians to come in right off the street. We try to have programs for those who are engineering driven, assuming that one is not necessarily better any other, they're just different tracks. We also have a project engineer’s academy where we invite people in those titles to come in over the course of several days. They have people around the department come to speak to them about things that impact their job. It also has a lot of people who used to have that role who come and talk about their experiences, which is a great way to kind of share that knowledge as people are walking out the door. And then, we do a lot of internal training. I think we have 12 different modules just to our engineering, our construction engineering and inspection training and that's above and beyond the things like the construction manual, the wex[?], all that sort of stuff. So really like I said, just being open minded, that people are going to come from different places, having a program that captures all of those and it is inclusive of everyone and just being prepared to train and develop the people when you do get them there is what we can do. Participant 7 - I agree with everyone, this has been very informative. I don't know if [participant 2] has more insight from the recruitment standpoint, but from a training [standpoint] and coming into the department, only being here three years. But, from my time here, we're heavy into pouring back into our staff. Really just being educated on the needs, what do you need and how you can educate us on what we can provide you? Because, that is very important to us when it comes to retention. We've done a few surveys, put out to the department as a whole, [asking] what can we do better? So, we're always willing to learn and, and even with our career development program, what is your career path as a whole. So, we're just trying to make sure the staff here is knowledgeable in what they're doing, but also if they're interested in continuing to move up to make a career out of [the job]. That's very important to us here. So from a training side, I've actually gone to some of the job fairs to show diversity and that women, with all the different jobs, that it's not only [a] male driven industry. To [show] that women can do all of these things as well. So, I look forward to continuing to participate, and all the information that I received today has been very helpful. Participant 5 - I appreciate this opportunity, it has been great to hear from other STAS about the strategies that everyone talked about. But I guess one of the things, in the last seven years working for [my STA] that I've realized is that all employees in a workplace just want to feel valued. Whether that's an engineer or technician or one of our highway marking specialists, they just want to feel that positive culture and have that environment. And so, we continuously are reviewing our data programs, benefits, focusing on branding and outreach. And really communicating that recruiting and retention and engagement involves everyone in the department. It doesn't just involve HR. And so that's something that we've focused on. And, I didn't have a chance to mention it. But we just concluded one of our research projects with several universities in [state] where they actually helped us

139 by putting together a research report to help us recruit, retain and engage with minorities and females in our department. And so, through those recommendations, that is what we're really hoping to focus on, the technical level and professional level as it relates to minorities and inclusion. Participant 2 - I think for me, my takeaway, because obviously we all share the same sentiment, is ‘partnerships.’ I think that a lot of the time, because we're struggling in getting the bottom line which is getting the person here, we forget that sometimes it starts from the bottom. So, I think partnerships involving more communication with the incoming group, [that is] more communication with the students that are in the colleges and are still in the high school. Why, not only, are they interested, but for those that aren't interested[, why not]? Maybe getting some surveys back. We get in the habit of knowing that what we can't change, the pay scale, or we know that we can't change the requirements. But times change, and people's ideas of what a career path also changes. So, I do think that that's my takeaway from today, that as important as it is for us to have a partnership, it is also important to have it from the bottom up. Focus Group #3 - Consultant firms and Construction Inspection On April 29th, 2021 the research team conducted a one-hour focus group via the Zoom meeting platform with five individuals representing five consultant firms. The individuals participating in the focus groups were manager, principals, and owners of consultant firms. There were six members of the research team in addition to the PI on the project. Primary (PQ) and Follow-up Questions (FQ): PQ 1 & 2 - The first two questions tie together and I am just going to throw this out there and anybody that wants to jump in first, please do so. (PQ1) Describe a little bit about how your inspectors are used for transportation projects coming from the consultant side to a public agency. And (PQ2), what are some of those primary responsibilities and tasks that those inspectors are to perform on these projects? Participant 4 – As I mentioned, I work with [Consultant firm] and we provide the same services that our [STA] folks used to do, and that is the inspection services for all the construction projects. We supplement the [STA] folks and their crews, getting people to supplement their forces at least in [my state]. So we come and go, they need us for two or three months or the whole season. And our inspectors are required to have the certifications the same certification [STA] inspectors. I do not know if you want to go through all those right now, Most of our inspectors [current] are retirees that have come back to work for us, have send them out to [my state, and other states]. FQ1a - Do you all have trouble getting finding inspectors, hiring them, and has that been a significant challenge? Participant 4 - To this point in my career with providing CEI services, we have not had a problem, but we are about at the saturation point where we are going to start having to look hard for people. We have been fortunate enough to have several retirees, that have wanted to come back to work, so it has been easy. But we are at a point now where if they cannot [connection lost] Participant 3 – [my state] has a very robust program, like the [state training program] especially for a [STA] project. Which is good thing because people get trained, they get certified, but sometimes to me it is too much, because you must go through the recertification repeatedly and sometimes people’s certification is expired. And, they are not going to renew, as it is costly of course, and that is creating [inspector shortages]

140 especially on [STA] project when you have folks that are all certified, but [have] expired application. So, we cannot use them. Emphasizing that only certified staff can be working on special and [STA] project is not fair, because some people get certifications but do not have enough experience to do the work. Sometimes they created very bad inspection results. I think should be a middle way and a state should be willing to do that. But with the counties and the city is they emphasize more on the experience. Certification is important like I said, and some cities and counties require [certification]. But, Yes, there is a shortage especially here in [my state] and the project is going [worse] as more and more people are looking for good staff. Sometimes you must keep [inspectors] on the payroll without work, to be able to be used for an upcoming project. FQ1b - Are you more ‘on call’ for inspections or is it lined up in advance? That is, scheduled out [and] knowing where you are going or is it more just show up whenever needed? Participant 3 – Both, on a [STA] project they have certain dates. I see I can get on for these days and get off, and we have a schedule for them. But in some counties, and on the city projects, it is on an as needed basis and it’s not been easy to schedule. So, if you must keep them on the payroll, like I said, it's been a big [financial] burden. Participant 5 - From what [participant 3] said earlier, living in [my state], a lot of the work that our company does is for the [STA] and some of the city and counties. They do emphasize certifications for the inspectors that we use on projects, not just CI contracts, we also provide quality control testing as well. So, if an [inspector] is going to provide compaction testing or density testing or something like that, they must have [the state- required] certifications. [For] concrete testing, they must also have [the state-required] inspector certification. So, the thing that I do see and I also agree [with] is that all our guys must have the certifications and it's sometimes it becomes a burden on the company itself where we must send these guys to classes and it's costly. And, there may be times when the inspector is done with the project, then they're looking for the next project to come up. And so, as a company, we can either keep them on the payroll or they don't get any paychecks. And so sometimes you may, when the project is over, you still have a CI employed and he's not going to just sit around and wait for the next project which may not start to like maybe a month or two months later. So, chances are he's probably going to go and look for other jobs. So what happens, is when that job does start, it's very difficult to find and convince that person to come back on board. So that becomes problematic. I do agree that the certification itself is needed, because you do want to make sure that you have individuals that are inspecting that infrastructure project to make sure that they are knowledgeable and aware of what they need to look for. Case in point in the U. S. we spend a lot of money on trying to improve our infrastructure, so that's why it's important to have people that are knowledgeable with the right skills to inspect those construction projects. At the same time, I think it is a burden. Sometimes it is a burden to have so many requirement for [CIs] to have because it's not just the certification itself, [but] the experience does count. What I think should happen is, I think if you have an individual has been in the profession for, I don't know 15, 20 years, why should they go and get recertified over and over? It's like with the [State-required certification program] you must get recertified, I think every 4 to 5 years. I've got a [CI] here who's been doing this for 25 years and then find out his certification expired. So I must go and send them to a class and the [CI] is literally 61 years old. He's a very bright guy, he knows his stuff, but for some reason I've got to pay money for him to get recertified. So, I think we must find a system

141 to where the state government have to say, ‘you've been doing this long enough. I'm not going to make you [recertify], let's just get your grandfather in into the system.’ So that's just my take on it. Participant 1 - The [state-required certification] mention in [state] is a qualification, not a certification, so [the state] they have more control over it. When it started in 1999-2000, there was only a couple of providers which meant if you were in [state], you had to go to [specific city] for your classes. Currently they have 34 providers throughout the state, so it's gotten a lot better. I've dealt with other programs [example programs] and I was in meetings in [a specific city] about it and for example we had a mixed design test that you had to wait, you had to put the sample in the freezer and wait 48 hours. And I suggested well why don't you have one in the freezer so you can pull it out and go on with the task and they didn't want to do that. By the time I got my students through that training there were doctors, so I mean, and to pay that person to need them when you only need them for an airport job or something. So, I think [state-required certification] is one of the better ones out there. Something there is training that needs to be done and if you keep track your qualifications you can just take the written test before it expires, and you can do that in a day at a local place. If you don't keep track of it and it expires, they have level 1 and level 2, then you might have to go back and take some classes. It's by no means perfect, but I think it's a good system. It's been worked on and compared to the other ones I've seen it is fairly cost effective. There's current training being required by the [government entity] now for field technicians, lab technicians project managers. And you can take it at [only one university], it is a week long, and it a lot of money. And, [qualification/certifications] are only good for three years. Once again, it's for airport jobs and there are no contractors that strictly do airport jobs. It's just one of the many things they do. So, keeping those qualified people is going to be hard. So, I think there's a system needs to be put in place, but I think [the state-required certification mentions previously] is a good one to look at and follow. PQ2 - What do you see as the [primary] construction knowledge that inspectors should possess to do inspections? Things like basic math skills, understanding different standards, knowing how to document thing, etc. Please speak a little bit about that and you can even talk a little bit about the challenges that go along with obtaining the proper knowledge needed. Participant 1 - Well [my STA], pretty much assigns everything to the CEIs. So, they are the STA on the project. So their job is to enforce specifications and all the oversight. So, they basically do everything from quantity, to quality, to change orders to everything. So obviously, the skills involved are immense depending on what position you have on the project. And another thing that happens a lot in [specific state] in there's a lot of night construction. So even the people that are truly in charge, they're not there, they’re in bed. So good communication skills, note taking, and phones used for something besides calling people…pictures. Accident investigation is big in [specific state], highway projects but basically in [specific state], [CEI]do everything, they just send a report to STA. You too will show up on occasion. But it's highly relying on inspectors on the job. And the only way to teach that is through training. They have different levels of inspectors, based on experience and so forth. And the jobs are selected not based on price but based on qualifications. So normally the STA knows what team they're getting all the way down to the inspectors, and they're familiar with inspectors, so that's where the confidence comes from.

142 Participant 3 - Well, speaking of the training and qualifications. In the old days, I remember the STA used to train everybody. You didn't have to go to the [training] classes, spend more money I believe was free if I'm not mistaken, like 20 years ago. Participant 1 - It was [free,] but it was more on the CI side and less on the quality control side which is part of it now. Participant 3 - Yes. And back then all the quality control on the road and highway infrastructure on a STA project was done by CIs. Right now, CI is only 25 percent of whatever contract. Since they call it QA/QC, it was giving to the contractor and so the contractor staff are getting certification and qualification through [training program] as well. Which is good, but in some cases, I look at assault in [state] for instance. Asphalt used to last 10 years, 15 years…right now is lasting five years, four years before you see rumbling again and I think something is wrong. The quality aspect used to be and what is it now? And if STA was keeping it the way it was to me was much better and we had a better product. Right now, it's quicker, I agreed. And yeah, it has been handed to the contractors, and with all due respect to the contractors, they're doing a great job. There are our partners but I think we should be somewhere in the middle. Not like it is now and like the convention, the expense of it is [too much]. If the gentleman is civil engineer [and] has done a [certification] 10 years ago, why he must go through the recertification, and spent 750 dollars on a pile driving inspections for instance? This is a lot [of money] and does not include lodging to go to the next county, next city or some other places to get the certification. This is my take. Participant 4 - Just going back to the question that you asked regarding what are some of the skillsset that the inspectors should have? Like [participant 1] said earlier, in the [state], you do have a lot of nighttime construction because of the volume of traffic that we see on our roadway. And so, most of the people decision makers on a job, they are in bed. So, the inspectors that you have out there, you've got the go from the advanced-level inspector to the regular roadway inspector to the sometimes you have inspector's aid. The skill set that I want to make sure is that person can communicate effectively, meaning that they'll be able to [communicate] both written and verbal. Those to me are important skills to have. Critical thinking skills is very important when things come up in the field. Yes, as a senior project engineer I'm not around, but I have confidence in my guy that they will make the right decision and if they do make the right decision, I will back him up. So critical thinking skill, communication skill, those are key. PC3 - Who is making the decisions on inspection levels, CI presence on a project? And do you think it's adequate for Transportation projects these days? Participant 3 - Well, I believe ultimately is the STA’s decision because as part of the proposal is called a Letter of Interest. We send it in, and it has a section where you should say [what CIs] you're going to use, how many hours per month. So, this is how it's been calculated and then as part of the scheduling of the inspection of the staff is done by usually senior project engineer. Used to be called resident engineer, which the STA is doing this itself now. [Inspections are] scheduled by the staff, the project administrator and senior project engineer. Usually the STA don't like the [CIs] to be full time, maybe 25 percent here and there. And then the PA mainly makes the decision on a daily basis, the scheduled will start according to contractors look ahead schedule. So the inspection is going to be

143 covered, like I mentioned, we have to have minimum of 25 percent of all testing, sampling engineering, that the contract does on the job. Participant 4 – Ultimately, the decision maker is the owner, which in this case would be [STA], the county engineer, whoever it is that I work for as a CI when I go onto a project. As a CI my project manager has enough confidence in me to make decisions that ultimately is going to give them a good product. Now, how I do that is, things will come up, my job is to inform him or her what those issues are. And, also, if there is any solution to whatever issues, a problem that comes up. What I do is, I get up with my team and we need to find out what the issue is, get a better understanding of it. Is it being addressed in the contract? If not, what is it that we need to do to make it so and also come up with solutions? Once we're able to do these things, then I go to my project manager and inform him of the issue and what decisions or address how we solve this problem? And sometimes it's not just one solution. I've worked with project manager that want multiple solutions, they want 3, 4, 5 solutions and, for them to be able to say, I like these solutions “C” better than the other ones. So ultimately, the one who makes the decision, is going to be the owner, but as a CEI team, my job is to present to them the solutions to these problems. Participant 1 - STAs have different levels to resolve different issues and a lot of times obviously the contractors involved depending on the issue, but the STA Spec book is pretty clear, and people who have used it long enough understand what's right and wrong. And then there's all sorts of avenues for the contractor if they disagree with the solution. So, I think it works well in [specific state]. PC4 - What some of the construction inspector challenges that you've had to deal with? Participant 1 - Well in [my state] obviously getting qualified people. A lot of times we must start with somebody from scratch and train them on our own and eat that cost. And that's part of business. But then the CEIs. Tend to get a higher wage than the contractor quality control. So, you're got to balance that. CEIs get paid on a multiplier, the more the inspector makes more the company makes contractors don't work that way they work on a divider and anything their pain is out of their pocket. So, training technicians and keeping technicians is a challenge. We have a lot of Spanish speaking, had more but Spanish engineers very smart, but the English is an issue that's more of a [state-specific] problem. But I think the main thing is keeping qualified technicians getting more, managing them is an issue because once again there at night they've got to make decisions, you don't know what's going on. And one thing that [certification agency] does, and STA does is every technician when they do a test, it goes in their max system, their laboratory information system so that automatically knows whether the guys qualified or not based on his training number. So, which is another good system. It gets things in then out, but it does add another layer of problems of inputting data and so forth, which goes back to qualified technicians. But our problem is, is getting enough [qualified people]. And, most of these guys you are going to have to teach, like anything. This isn't something you're going to learn anywhere but being out there learning, and that's what our future is going to be is getting the proper ‘clay to mold.’ FQ4a - We talk about the challenge of recruiting new inspectors. Is there a specific skill that they oftentimes really lack? That's hard to, that's harder to address and other skills. Participant 1 - Motivation. We did career training days for high school kids. And their first question was, what size are the wheels on your truck? If you've got 24s or something, you're good. So, it's a challenge. Most of the kids are tech savvy, but some of them would

144 rather work in the air conditioning than, out outside. Ands that's the biggest challenge. Obviously, you look for the mass skills and some type of education, but a lot of it, you just got to give them to try and see if they take to it. FQ4b - Is there any reciprocity to transfer tests from one state to another? So that if a student comes out to [your state] from [neighboring state], do they have to retake all the exams? Participant 1 - That's been looked at a few times. They've currently got something in place where if you worked 30 days or 60 days under an existing qualification CEI until you get re requalified in the state. That's the whole overall goal for this is to have a nationwide [certification or qualification] type system. But that's going to be tough because everybody likes to do it their way. So, I guess that's one benefit of the [agency] qualification is it's supposed to be nationwide but once again it's not very cost effective and it's still better than [existing training organization]. But I don't think it's the answer especially for the limited qualification, if it just for [a specific agency]. [My state’s] concern was yeah, you might have built a bridge in [neighboring state], but you don't know how [my state] builds bridges. So that was their reason. Participant 4 - The challenges is with our contract with [agency]. At the present, It's an on-call contract, and inspectors, especially young inspectors, that are looking for a career, don't want to be on an on-call status. They want something that they can count on, as a full- time job. So, it works out well for us to have retired people because they kind of expect to come and go, as the work comes and goes. But for someone that wants a full-time secure position, it's difficult for us to keep people on hand to work on an on-call project because it's just so unsure. The key there is to try to find more work out there. That's like [your state] for instance, it sounds like they have a whole lot more full-time inspection projects, project wide work instead of on-call work to support [the STA]. So that's probably the biggest challenge we have, not being able to keep people on full-time, because that just the nature of our contract [type]. Participant 3 - Well like mentioned, the biggest challenge is to find qualified staff and keep them. PQ5 - What do you think could be done to improve the construction inspection process? Participant 3 - Like I mentions, make it easier. The [state-required training program] like I mentioned is the best thing that has happened to the training of construction engineering for the inspection staff. But it should be easier, especially in [my state] as requiring every 3 to 4 years to be recertified is too much true, simply put it that way. Participant 5 – I say ‘amen’ to what was said before. I mean the process improving it is going to be it's a challenge. But I think we have a lot of people retiring in the profession. I think the federal government, or somebody, has to step in and try to create some ways to…create some sort of an incentive to get firms to hire people. Perhaps it could be a tax credit or whatever to keep [CEI staff] around and maybe having worked with somebody that's been working in the profession for a while, and I think they call it apprenticeship, right? But you must incentivize it, so that a lot of companies would hire people to do that. Because again, it's very difficult to for me to go out and hire a young person who has never been in construction, they have some interest. But the thing is how do I sustain their interests at the same time and be able to keep on my payroll? It's difficult as a company to do that. So, I think the government is going to have to figure out a way to incentivize the firms to improve the workforce. I'm 48 years old and a lot of people that I worked with

145 have since retired and they continue to retire. So, and I'm not seeing new blood coming into the industry. Participants 4 - Well, I was going go the same direction that [participant 5] was talking about and that is apprenticeships and internships. I think that that's one way to get, young people interested is to be given a taste of what it's like, and for states or government, local government, whoever the owners are to have internship program. [My state] is currently working on something like that and has that in the contract, but they haven't figured out yet. They don't think how they want to use it. And another question along those lines or comment is that there's an intern actually have to be a college student? The educational skills are nice, but, there are a lot of qualified people that you could find out there that aren't necessarily college grads, that could learn these skills, that could, that would have the ability to take the certifications and pass them and learn, as an intern, as an apprentice, without having to have the college background. I mean, most of the people that we have working right now are not college graduates. The inspectors talking about just experienced old guys. I think we get caught up sometime looking for college grads, and requiring that as part of our hiring process. But, in this case, I think there's a lot of untapped resources out there with non-college educated people. Facilitator [industry member from NCHRP team] – I just wanted to say that a lot of good conversation here talking about maintaining a workforce on the consultant side. It's very difficult. As mentioned, [inspection] is kind of on an as needed basis and it's very hard to employ somebody on an as needed [basis]. Maybe OK when they're retired, and they don't really care if they're working full time or not. They can occasionally, but if they're off some that's okay too. I think some ideas tossed out how to get, it may be offering some tax incentives and things like that. I don't really have any suggestions except I was thinking if you were guaranteed hours somehow, like a consultant on a design project, aren't they guaranteed 500 hours or 1000 whatever it may be if you're guaranteed some hours and then it fell upon the state to maybe possibly use those hours however they want it either as active inspection or as maybe as completing finals and paperwork in the office or whatever. But if a CEI knows that they have committed to 200 hours and if it's not inspecting, you're going to pay one way, or another, CEI could use the as needed wherever they need it possibly. I don't know if that's an idea that would work or not. But at least the consultants could then commit to these employees and maybe they could see a more long-term opportunity there rather than this is just short-term fill in work and I'm not going to do this very long-term. FQ5a & FQb - Anything else you wanted to add about the training, do you think it's adequate enough? We also can tie into the last question to if there's any kind of technologies that, that your inspectors are now using and being trained on?. Participant 1 - Well, I think, most of the classes I teach, they're probably half the class is new. They don't know an asphalt plant from a tomato plant, but in the other people in the class have a lot of experience and it's kind of a good blend when you're sitting there with them for three days. One of the things I stress most is safety, cones don't stop cars and I've got plenty of stories about safety. But, I think [the training] is sufficient. The training are not going to make you go out the next day and become a verification inspector with $30- 40K riding on a test. But you, know what's required and they don't want you to memorize specs. for the class because they change. At one time they were changing every two months, there's a little more stable now. But even if classes are 12 years old, some of the suspects

146 in the classes. The main thing is where do you find the answer? So a lot of the level two classes are open book so that, you don't have to memorize everything, but You need to know where to get the information when you need it. So, they could use updating but that that takes money and time. I have looked at a lot of other states and, there are 34 providers, and they're in it to make money too. So, they're going to fill up the class as much as they can so that they get their $300, $400, $500 a person. Yeah, but there's also additional cost for the provider because they've got to buy the tests and the books from another place. So, it's a little farm industry. But I think it's a good basis to start. Definitely compared to [other training program] and even the [government agency] stuff. Just to travel cost alone out cost anything [my start required program] has. Participant 1 - On the [interstate highway] project, everything was digital and electronic that the inspection staff were getting. We created an inspection test plan specifically for every inspection, that includes all the requirements that could be accessed through staff smartphone or tablet. They had access to the drawings, specifications and all the requirements. How many concrete samplings needs to be done on this and that, everything was approved all day? They approved plans and mixes electronically, everything was there. I think this is and we've been using [the application] on every project. Our SharePoint for inspection staff, they can use it and it's been very helpful at the same time. For instance, [if the] contractor wants a pour column two concrete tomorrow, 48 hours before, [the system] sends an email to all the required parties and they get everything at the same time, including STAs, staff and they're going to be there. So that one thing has been very helpful as far as technology goes. Participant 5 - Regarding [my state’s] training, I believe it is adequate. One thing that the STA does here, which I think it's quite impressive, is whenever you have an inspector who goes out and performs a test on a project the STA has a system that checks. Basically, it's a place for [inspectors] to go in and input your results for that test. The system will automatically send out an email to one of the materials engineers for that district to let them know that [an inspector] just input it results for this test. And so, he needs to be what they call ‘independently assured’ [IA], So somebody out there will contact me and I need you to IA an inspections. The purpose of it is they want to see whether I know how to properly administer the tests. And so, to me that's kind of impressive because what if you do have somebody out on site that has a certification but doesn't really perform or administer the tests correctly. And so that's just a way for them to check to make sure that that individual knows how to properly administer the test. So, I think that's impressive. Regarding the training, a lot of the guys that I worked with do use SharePoint to communicate with each other. A lot of guys use tablets out in the field. I know sometimes it could be a little bit of a burden for guys to carry a set a plans that is 5 to 10 pounds, a lot of guys don't like that. I mean, some of the old guys like the old system, they like to see paper, but some of the new guy, they like to use tablets. We have and use an iPad out in the field. Participant 1 - Another thing, it's kind of important when you're looking at future training methods, is that [my state-specific training program] is a qualification instead of a certification. I guess part of the reason for this, was that they don't have to get with a CI or whatever. If it's concrete issue, they can pull the qualification immediately from the technician so that they ultimately have control and they have a system in place. Kind of a three-strike system that if You did something wrong, you made a mistake in the test. It will be a strike one and it will go away in a year or if it's falsification of data, it is an automatic

147 disqualification for five years or something. So, that's I think that's important when you go down the road, is qualification versus certification, due to overall control of the system. Participant 4 - I echo what most of the guys have already said, our folks are using tablets, iPads for the most part. So unfortunately, a lot of the training that we have to do with them is on the administrative side and not the not the technical side, but I think the training that our people receive is good. The certifications are good. It sounds to me like, hearing what some of the others have said, that some of their certifications require several days or a weeklong class and most of ours don't. They're just one day for the most part, classes with the test and I think that's plenty adequate. The only other thing I like throw in is that I don't know what other states do, but for the most part our inspectors are just required to do field construction inspection type work. They aren't required to do any materials testing or plant inspections or that kind of thing. But we have been receiving request from [our STA] to provide an old materials guy to come back and help with the materials office. So, I think that need is expanding. They're not from just the construction [side] but the materials side. So, I think some cross training there with the inspectors in the materials area would probably [be a] benefit.